It
surprised me to discover some women consider forced femme offensive. Because
I'm not a woman, I thought very hard on those opinions, but the logic of the
argument doesn't speak to me. I don't expect to convince any of them they're
wrong, because I don't think they are wrong, I consider it a matter of personal
opinion. I expressed as much and was told, essentially, that it's not a matter
of opinion. I was told men who enjoy forced femme are misogynists, whether they
know it or not.
I
have a problem with someone else claiming to know what I think better than I
know what I think. But my intention in posting about this subject isn't to
argue with people who think differently from me. I'm posting this as a counter
point to some of the posts I've found from dominant women. I know a lot of
submissive men's first interaction with a real life, openly dominant woman is
through these blogs. It can be pretty close to devastating to have a dominant
woman tell a man who purports to esteem women that a fantasy he's been carrying
around for years is "proof" that he actually hates women and just
doesn't realize it.
The
logic of the argument is hard for me to follow and so will be hard for me to
summarize, but I guess the argument is that because being made to wear panties
is humiliating for you, as a man, it must be because you feel like there is
something despicable about being like the people, women, who normally wear
panties. An analogy I've heard for this side of the argument is that it's like
someone wearing black face and mocking African American people.
I
thought of an analogy today, that I think works better. Two friends went to
rival colleges. The two schools are comparable in every way. Neither friend
truly believes his or her school is superior. Yet they brag about their
respective alma maters. A big game comes up, and they decide on a wager. The
graduate of the losing school has to wear the winning school's sweater out to a
bar, buy a round, and toast the winning school. There is some playful
humiliation in the loser having to toast the team he or she wished hadn't won.
Forced
femme seems like that. We're talking about men who profess to love and revere
women. But they aren't women, they're men. Men and women are different. Often
those differences are what draws us to each other. Submissive men genuinely
love women, they love them for those differences, but that doesn't erase the
social influence that they aren't expected to do things mostly only women do,
like sit when they pee, or wear panties. So when they submit to a dominant
woman who "forces" them to wear women's panties, they don't feel
humiliated because they're dressed like lowly women. They feel humiliated
because they know they aren't women and are being made to wear something men,
in typical society, don't wear.
To
continue my analogy, there would possibly be some adamant fan of the winning
school who would want nothing to do with a rival to his school wearing the
clothes of his alma mater and toasting his school. That's fine. What I think
wouldn't be fine would be if he told the winner of the bet that he must hate
his school to let someone toast their school in jest. If someone finds that
disrespectful, they're certainly entitled to not participate, but I think
they're imposing their views if they tell others they should also find it
disrespectful.
I think that's a much better analogy.
ReplyDeleteNicely written.
I completely agree.
ReplyDeleteThank you. :)
Thanks, both of you, for commenting. I've thought a lot about this, since being surprised to find women so adamantly against this fantasy. I actually touched on it in Serving Her, in a scene where Alex paints Kimberly's toenails. It can be hard to clear the social influence and get to what you really feel. (impossible, really) But I've tried to do that and still feel it depends on what's in the mind of the individual.
ReplyDeleteI was told men who enjoy forced femme are misogynists, whether they know it or not.
ReplyDeleteNot precisely. I'll quote myself here so you don't have to read my whole post:
However, feeling humiliated and turned on by wearing panties doesn’t mean the man wearing them is a bad person or a hopeless misogynist. It just means (assuming I understand how fetishes work) that it’s not unlikely that when he was a child he tried on a woman’s clothes, was shamed for it, and eroticized that shame. Or maybe he was never actually caught but was aware enough of social norms to fear getting caught. In a society that didn’t devalue women he probably wouldn’t have developed a humiliation-focused fetish for being forced to wear women’s clothing (he might still have a fetish for wearing particular styles and fabrics, but he wouldn’t feel humiliated by wearing those things), but that doesn’t mean that growing up in this one makes him a bad person.
The rest of the post talks about how you can enjoy a misogynistic kink without being a jerk about it.
Two friends went to rival colleges. The two schools are comparable in every way. Neither friend truly believes his or her school is superior.
In your analogy, either friend would be equally embarrassed by having to wear the other school's sweater. If that's true, why is forced feminization an <extremely common kink while forced masculinization is barely even a thing?
It's great that you want so badly to believe men and women are treated as equals in our society - not sarcasm, I actually do think that's great - but it's just not the case. None of us can actually escape the subtle sexism we're all indoctrinated with. Here's an example: female doctor sounds like a perfectly normal thing to say. Male doctor sounds weird and redundant. David Smith sounds more like a serious researcher than Tiffany Smith does. The best we can do is admit we all have subconscious biases and try to correct for them as best we can.
Thank you for commenting. Your blog is where I first came upon the idea, and as I recall you presented it well and fairly, as your excerpt demonstrates. I don't think misogyny doesn't exist. Where we disagree is that misogyny is the root cause of forced femme fantasies. It is probably sometimes the cause, as in your examples above, but it's going too far to assume all men who are titillated by forced femme are because of the influence of misogyny in society.
ReplyDeleteSimilarly, homophobia is sometimes a result of men battling a homosexual impulse in a society where homosexuality isn't widely accepted, but that wouldn't explain all homophobia. The numbers wouldn't add up. Like dream symbolism always has to be tailored to the individual, people are too complicated to always deduce the root of a fantasy as a reflection of society's misogyny. Misogyny exists but so do gender differences. Misogyny probably contributed to some of the rigidity in gender differences, but men grow up in a world where, most often, panties are worn by women and not by men. If the root of that is misogyny, to men who love and respect women, it's incidental. Some men who yearn to submit to a dominant woman fantasize about being forced to wear panties, simply because it's not something men usually do, but bypassing any link to misogyny that may have led to wearing panties being considered strictly for women.
To me, it's at least possible that men who have rejected the influence of misogyny in society would still develop forced femme fantasies strictly from the rigidity of gender differences, irrespective of the misogyny that led to those gender differences. I think that explains why women being forced to dress like men isn't nearly as popular a fantasy because the social expectation of what women should wear isn't there.
"None of us can actually escape the subtle sexism we're all indoctrinated with."
I certainly agree with you there, which is something I work hard to keep out of my writing. And why I've given a lot of thought to this idea. I just don't see an inextricable link between the two.